Passat 1,4 tsi with cng

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skarebrian
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Passat 1,4 tsi with cng

Beitrag von skarebrian » 02.01.2013 18:24

Hi all, will not even try to write in German - have a good understanding and a little pub talk, but diving into your "Erdgas " forum would be too much.

Literally just bought a 2010 Passat - 18 Dec - drove from Stockholm to Trelleborg - Everything perfect - first filling with gas - got 450km.

On 24/12 - all my dreams went upp in smoke - almost.
EPC - a hated message - followed by the yellow engine symbol. Car started to hack - Went from gas to petrol then back again.
Same again on 25/12.
So after holidays (27/12 ) managed to be first in line at VW garage, they did a diagnosis - but never clear exactly what was wrong - sounded like " cylinder" and "valves" - I think the "gas expert" was on holiday. So I am booked in for a new diagnosis on 10/1.

Started to look on different forums and soon realised I was not alone. Still I do not have a real explantion of what this is.
Is the 1,4 Engine too light for gas burning and the valves wear? Is it a tank problem ? Is it a gas valve somewhere? A gas sensor ? Oil in the fuel ?

If anyone could make a summery for me in English ( or Swedish ) - so I can prepare for my workshop visit.
Brian in Trelleborg :cry:

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Bassmann
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Beitrag von Bassmann » 02.01.2013 18:54

Hi and welcome!

We would know more, if we had the codes, they should have read at VW. If there is the yellow engine-symbol, there should be a code.

The fuel is filled up, too? (Empty Super98-tank lets the firmware make efforts to switch to CNG, probs with CNG makes the firmware switch back to Super98... )

Some Passat-owners had probs with the cylinder heads, maybe a compression test might show new hints.

What kind of gear-box is in Your car? Manually shifted or the DSG? (Don't know wheter "DSG" is the correct abbreviation for the automated gear-box with two clutches...)

Kind regards!
Bassmann
17 Zylinder, 4,85 Liter Hubraum, aber verteilt auf 2 Autos und 3 Motorräder:
Golf4 Kombi 1.6l autom. mit CNG-Nachrüstung, ca. 10€/100km
Polo4 9N3 united 1.4l 5-Gang mit CNG-Nachrüstung, ca. 8€/100km
(jeweils incl. Luxusbrühe)
Motorräder: 644ccm Suzuki Freewind (Eintopf), 600ccm Yamaha Fazer 35kW, 600ccm Yamaha Fazer ABS 72kW
Wenn ein einziger Baum umfällt, macht das mehr Lärm, als wenn ein ganzer Wald wächst.

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not_arzt
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Beitrag von not_arzt » 03.01.2013 00:13

First of alll: Is there still CNG in your Tank and - if that may be the case - is it possible to refill some more CNG? What does the gas gauge show ???

This is a serious question, because in some cases the gauge may point on the "empty" Position although some of the 3 CNG-Tanks are filled to capacity !!!
Warum nicht mal wirklich Gas geben?
---------------------------------
Passat Variant TSI EcoFuel Comfortline (5,0 kg/100 km - ermittelt mit Tankbuch App)
2Danger Transalp Ltd. XT ´08 (5 l Apfelschorle/100 km)

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Sven2
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Beitrag von Sven2 » 03.01.2013 05:34

A further question: How many kilometres does your car have on the odometer? If you have good luck, the spark plugs are simply worn.
Its hard to read, that an authorised VW dealer is unable to read the error codes. If some yellow warning lights glow up in the instrument cluster an error has been saved in the engine control unit. AFAIK 80% of the Ecofuel Passats are sold in Sweden. So the Swedish garages should have a knowledge about these cars.

To answer the questions you asked:
Is the 1,4 Engine too light for gas burning and the valves wear?
The TSI Ecofuel engine has been develeoped to be operated with gas. I presume, you own the factory solution and not a car converted subsequently. Some users here reported problems with excessive wear. Bassmann recommended already to check the compression.

Is it a tank problem ? / Is it a gas valve somewhere?
There are some problems known with the valves on the gas tanks, but these problems lead to reduced range, not to ignition failures and alternation operation with gasoline and gas.
Furthermore there is a gas pressure control unit. In the German language forum we normally use the short cut GDR. The electronic controlled version installed in the Passat works fine, failures are reported rarely. If there is really a GDR problem, the VW garage should be able to locate and fix it.

A gas sensor ?
There are pressure sensors before and after GDR. No signal or an implausible signal would lead to the standard error reaction: The car switches to gasoline and remains in gasoline mode.

Oil in the fuel ?
Depends on the compressor type at the filling station. Opel did install oil traps in some of their CNG cars. I suppose, most users here don't have experience with Swedish filling stations.
Wiederholungstäter: früher Touran TSI_EF, jetzt B200 NGD
CNG-Aufkleberimporteur

skarebrian
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Registriert: 01.01.2013 22:31

Beitrag von skarebrian » 03.01.2013 12:45

Thanks,

The diagnosis was a little vaque - I think the technician said that they had done a compression test - but possibly it could be that they will do it on the 10/1 - I will ask for the report when I see the service manager next.

Both tanks have been half full all christmas week.
The car has done 55 300 km and is a 6 gear manual box .

Brian

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anacronataff
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Beitrag von anacronataff » 03.01.2013 21:38

Hello Brian,

do you have EPC (yellow engine-symbol) in both modes? In gas-mode and in petrol-mode? Or just in gas-mode? If only in gas-mode, I believe you will have problems with the gas-injektors N366 - N369, one of the know problems with Passat 1.4 TSI EcoFuel.

Greetings
Gerd
Passat EF 1.4TSI DSG MJ02/2010: 235500km (2204km wg Tanken), 5.49 €/100km, Gesamt: 28.29 €/100km * Service Intervalle * CNG-Reichweiten * CNG-Tankrekorde mit 21kg Tanks * Fotos und eigene POI's mit Navigon

skarebrian
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Registriert: 01.01.2013 22:31

Beitrag von skarebrian » 03.01.2013 23:31

Hi Gerd,
this checklist is great.

I will try to analyse exactly tomorrow, but as I remember.

First time I got EPC on gas - Then it Went to petrol. But it was still running lumpy. Then it tried gas again and then the Engine light came on.
Second day Engine light was on from start. It became jumpy on gas and Went to petrol. Ran quite well but not good. Then it tried gas again and EPC came on. Then it goes back and forth from gas to petrol I Think depending upon how you press the gas pedal, but ..... When I reverse up into my drive it sounds like a tractor.

On gas it twitches in idle - almost stalling - Think it was gas - one thing to check again.
Those references N30 - N33 and N36 - N363 - is this from the diagnostic ?
Also how may gas tanks and (Three) valves ? So if one valve was faulty it would cause these sort of problems ?

Brian

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Bassmann
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Beitrag von Bassmann » 03.01.2013 23:58

skarebrian hat geschrieben: Also how may gas tanks and (Three) valves ? So if one valve was faulty it would cause these sort of problems ?
How should it? You would see it at the distance driven between two fill-ups. It has nothing to do with engines running like tractors...

Yours
Bassmann
17 Zylinder, 4,85 Liter Hubraum, aber verteilt auf 2 Autos und 3 Motorräder:
Golf4 Kombi 1.6l autom. mit CNG-Nachrüstung, ca. 10€/100km
Polo4 9N3 united 1.4l 5-Gang mit CNG-Nachrüstung, ca. 8€/100km
(jeweils incl. Luxusbrühe)
Motorräder: 644ccm Suzuki Freewind (Eintopf), 600ccm Yamaha Fazer 35kW, 600ccm Yamaha Fazer ABS 72kW
Wenn ein einziger Baum umfällt, macht das mehr Lärm, als wenn ein ganzer Wald wächst.

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anacronataff
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Beitrag von anacronataff » 04.01.2013 12:25

Wait a minute. I thought EPC (engine control unit failure) = Engine light (catalyst failure), but it is not. As far as i know the problems with gas-injektors (N366, N367, N368, N369) and petrol-injektors (N30, N31, N32, N33) comes together with Engine-light(catalyst failure). I don't remember that I read something from EPC.

EPC could be everything. From gas pedal failure to ....
So we and you need the error codes...
Passat EF 1.4TSI DSG MJ02/2010: 235500km (2204km wg Tanken), 5.49 €/100km, Gesamt: 28.29 €/100km * Service Intervalle * CNG-Reichweiten * CNG-Tankrekorde mit 21kg Tanks * Fotos und eigene POI's mit Navigon

skarebrian
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Registriert: 01.01.2013 22:31

Beitrag von skarebrian » 04.01.2013 21:33

OK I will take a couple of steps back.
EPC warning is yellow letters EPC ( Electronic Power Control ) -Engine steering - often say on dash something like " Engine fault seek workshop ",

Then what I called engine light is the yellow engine symbol - catalyser.
The engine symbol is on all of the time at the moment, so I guess this is in " get you home mode " - so many other things are involved.

Basically it goes backwards and forwards between gas and petrol - when the car judders on gas the EPC light comes on - just before this the yellow engine light goes from a fixed light to a blinking light ( faulty burning) , then once EPC is lit back to fixed again.

Did I understand that the gearbox is somehow related to this - I felt that the gear box was more difficult to use today, but perhaps I am imagining things !

Heard from a Swedish friend that there are a number of filters in the system - do these give rise to problems too ? Would they be in the normal service routines ?

Gerd - are your 6 Points still correct ? Where do the N numbers come from ?


Bassman - I meant to write - how many gas tanks are there - from this foto there are 3 - is there a valve for each - or are they connected ?
Bild
Brian

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Bassmann
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Beitrag von Bassmann » 04.01.2013 21:43

Each has its own electromagnetic valve. Trouble with these valves has imho no influence on the behavior of the pressure reducer or the valves for each cylinder.

The N-Numbers are the abbreviations in the plan of the electric cables for the gasoline resp. gas-valves for each cylinder.

We need the failure-codes.

Yours
Bassmann
17 Zylinder, 4,85 Liter Hubraum, aber verteilt auf 2 Autos und 3 Motorräder:
Golf4 Kombi 1.6l autom. mit CNG-Nachrüstung, ca. 10€/100km
Polo4 9N3 united 1.4l 5-Gang mit CNG-Nachrüstung, ca. 8€/100km
(jeweils incl. Luxusbrühe)
Motorräder: 644ccm Suzuki Freewind (Eintopf), 600ccm Yamaha Fazer 35kW, 600ccm Yamaha Fazer ABS 72kW
Wenn ein einziger Baum umfällt, macht das mehr Lärm, als wenn ein ganzer Wald wächst.

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not_arzt
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Beitrag von not_arzt » 04.01.2013 23:58

Hi Skarebrian,

Just found a link to the english version of the so called "Self-Study-Program" (SSP) of Volkswagen referring to CNG-Engines and their special devices.

Try this

http://ebookbrowse.com/ssp-373-d1-pdf-d57119852

here you´ll find the the abovementioned N-Numbers etc.

With kind regards

Markus
Warum nicht mal wirklich Gas geben?
---------------------------------
Passat Variant TSI EcoFuel Comfortline (5,0 kg/100 km - ermittelt mit Tankbuch App)
2Danger Transalp Ltd. XT ´08 (5 l Apfelschorle/100 km)

skarebrian
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Registriert: 01.01.2013 22:31

Beitrag von skarebrian » 05.01.2013 00:26

Thanks Markus,

Loads of information here - now I know what I bought !

Next step to apply it.

Brian

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not_arzt
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Beitrag von not_arzt » 05.01.2013 01:02

By the Way. There ist another ssp (425) especially for the 1.4 TSi Engine. Try To find this in english at google.

For Download of 373 Check this Out

http://www.volkspage.net/technik/ssp/index4_eng.php

But it Stops at 400!

By the way. There are 3 Gas-Tanks as you supposed and each of them has his own valve as Bassmann mentioned.
Warum nicht mal wirklich Gas geben?
---------------------------------
Passat Variant TSI EcoFuel Comfortline (5,0 kg/100 km - ermittelt mit Tankbuch App)
2Danger Transalp Ltd. XT ´08 (5 l Apfelschorle/100 km)

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anacronataff
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Beitrag von anacronataff » 05.01.2013 11:53

SSP373 -> 2.0 EcoFuel
SSP425 -> 1.4 TSI EcoFuel
are your 6 Points still correct
I think so. But the good news: I got the impression that VW tries to solve the problems....


Pictures and video from gas cng tanks passat 1.4 tsi ecofuel, but I think the tanks or tanksvalues are not your problem.

Also, I never have heard problems with the filters



We need the failure-codes!!!! (If you want to try it read them by yourself: Buy VCDS! In Germany from here (on Sale for 259,-€). In Schweden: ????)
Passat EF 1.4TSI DSG MJ02/2010: 235500km (2204km wg Tanken), 5.49 €/100km, Gesamt: 28.29 €/100km * Service Intervalle * CNG-Reichweiten * CNG-Tankrekorde mit 21kg Tanks * Fotos und eigene POI's mit Navigon

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